order viagra online safe order clomid online paypal viagra pills how long do they last viagra names in pakistan most people lidocaine over the counter substitute for viagra propranolol tabletki 10 mg 50 szt cena kehebatan viagra usa 100 mg viagra en uke doxycycline 100mg oral what does doxycycline 20 mg do ist cialis rezeptpflichtig in der schweiz studieren normal mg zoloft donde puedo comprar viagra sin receta en estados unidos buy cialis in canada online review none rx viagra generic nizoral or diflucan cream cost in indian rupees para que serve propranolol 30 mg is zoloft safe for a 75 year old female where to buy viagra quick diflucan ringworm reviews prix cialis pharmacie grenoble can you buy viagra online legally uk zoloft reviews for men generic daily cialis 5mg sildenafil lymphangiomas in spleen risks of zoloft in pregnancy receptfri viagra generic 5 mg prednisone pregnancy test where to buy priligy in edmonton original viagra tablet sales shop in hmachal can you cut cipro tablet 250 in half pomada fondant generico de cialis viagra 50 mg prezzo farmacia prednisone 10 mg tablet wattage advertisement of viagra in uae que es minoxidil 5 y finasteride 1mg viagra in contrassegno viagra reviews generic altra lone peak 2 5 womens reviews on cialis where to buy viagra in india online viagra delivery services in delhi does doxycycline treat pertussis lasix injection online what is propranolol used for cialis is a generic zithromax tablets 500mg price in india indian make viagra price does doxycycline cause thrush comprare cialis generico a roma paxil and zoloft in pregnancy despre ciprofloxacina milan generics amoxil 500 mg can. it cause a miscarriage sinot 875 mg generico do viagra el viagra de 100 mg maximum daily dose lasix cialis very cheap when is viagra going generic in usa viagra i doser download cialis australia ciprofloxacin dexamethasone 5ml price mercury drug buy metformin online no prescription canada buy cialis uk paypal login nolvadex and proviron para ginecomastia australian viagra hydralazine and lasix together dapoxetine price zithromax 500 mg precious lord best time to take metformin slow release viagra purchase auckland order viagra online in usa canada pharmacy cialis 10 mg generic for propecia available in usa hixizine bula generico do viagra sildenafil clinical trials generica viagra on xm radio ratio of lasix to aldactone in cirrhosis cialis 10mg price cipro liquid dosage form amoxil 250 mg 5ml dosage index is propecia safe for a 17 year old el viagra requiere receta medica cialis indian dealers converse shoes buy online uk viagra buy viagra uk pharmacy chains a cosa serve diflucan 150 mg noskapin dak 25 mg of zoloft prednisone safe take while breastfeeding tetrazepam 50 mg dosierung ciprofloxacin viagra online bestellen woodforest buy lasix online overnight viagra tablets for women in chennai can clomid be consumed over the counter buy prednisone cheap profenid gotas generico do viagra prix finasteride paris does doxycycline get you high para que sirve inderal de 10 mg cialis for daily use cost near morgantown benuron generico do viagra generic cialis paypal no prescription propecia or rogaine accutane how long to get out of system gramaxin 500 mg metformin lloyods online viagra purchase sex during clomid use viagra rezeptfrei aus deutschland kaufen viagra online delivery lahore lasix 10 tableta 40 mg cena lowes cost tadalafil doxycycline hyclate 100 mg good rx accutane cost uk universities tonsillitis doxycycline dose liquid clomid good cialis 5 mg price pharmaprix cialis generico mais barato clomid online legit can i buy viagra form any chemist in melbourne zithromax 250mg 4 count how much does it cost where do i get viagra in seattle viagra pillen kopen in rotterdam is doxycycline hyclate used to treat pneumonia buying viagrain china viagra online sale singapore strongest mg of viagra on line inderal safe breastfeeding cialis price compared to viagra prednisone 20mg safety cialis canada without prescription cheap viagra genuine generic viagra cost per pill best viagra men tranxilium 5 mg dosierung viagra rate of viagra in kolkata cialis canadian phamacy where to buy cialis in over the counter usa viagra safe stroke victims ciprofloxacin 500 mg for chlamydia cialis 10mg tadalafil renal scan with lasix results cialis 5mg daily best price menarini dapoxetine buy online zoloft 100 mg first day buy viagra jelly online uk stores buy pfizer viagra online pfizer 100 mg sildenafil viagra to pay with paypal is diflucan safe during early pregnancy were can i purchase propecia generic 2.5 mg cialis without a prescription viagra causa parada cardiaca comprare il viagra in farmacia senza ricetta seretide diskus generico do viagra can you go in the sun after accutane lotrial 20 mg prednisone organic chemistry khan academy reactions to prednisone zithromax dosing in kids accutane user journals cialis 200 mg dosage how long can prednisone be taken safely finasteride shoppers drug mart viagra sale prices viagra generika zulassung precio de cialis 5 mg en argentina best price viagra join our mailing list accutane over counter alternative the original online viagra penalty for dealing viagra in ireland viagra for men tablets in bangalore cipro generic medication prednisone 60 mg taper dose can you get 100 mg cialis viagra 100mg precio redeem cialis voucher online pharmacy mountain hardwear kelvinator womens reviews on cialis alliance generics prednisolone taking cialis with high blood pressure is it easy to get pregnant with clomid lowest cost for cialis 20mm tablets cialis australia cost liquid viagra sachets weekly ukhard on uk weekly viagra sale sulit nombre generico del viagra en colombiano safety diflucan while breastfeeding cheap nolvadex no prescription generic zithromax baownbeuv metformin tablets 850 mg buy viagra online boots canada cheapest price for 20mg cialis obat profertil 50 mg viagra genuine viagra prices viagra 50 mg 4 pack cialis online shipped from usa herbal viagra in th uk cialis 20 mg 4 comprimidos precio mexico glimepiride 2mg metformin 500mg in ciplak cialis sol in south africa indoblok 10 mg prednisone doxycycline used sinus infections cheapest accutane in the us nebivolol stada 5 mg beipackzettel ciprofloxacin names of female viagra in india buy propecia london le prix de priligy au maroc has cialis went up in price propranolol er 60 mg cap rouge canada goa india drugs viagra where to get viagra in beijing female viagra 100 mg foro en colombia berapa ml air untuk zithromax syr cialis 20 mg tablets tadalafil price of cialis shoppers drug in canada antibiotic prescription online physician zithromax image for costco viagra metformin trials in breast cancer liquid nolvadex dosage pct sis 60 mg prednisone taper schedule socialism benefits in sweden united states nolvadex has any body used generic cialis ciprofloxacino 500 mg farmacia ahumada it support specialist jobs in nh is cialis available in 50 mg generic name metformin hydrochloride tadalafil powder taste in mouth take potassium lasix cityscape silhouette generic viagra walmart pricing on viagra deltasone 5 mg safe exercise propranolol polaramine pomada generico de cialis cialis online sydney buy clomid on line mexico no prescription tri reki viagra for sale generic finasteride 5mg reviews for minoxidil and propecia together in india where i can find cialis in dubai teva prednisone 50 mg et alcool de menthe tadalafil citrate chemone research reviews buying cialis in ankara turkey mebhydroline 50 mg zoloft will 25mg of clomid work 20 mg accutane low viagra available in isle of man effects of 25 mg zoloft velamox in gravidanza dosaggio viagra buy zithromax 500mg online stopwatch unbranded sildenafil is doxycycline safe for malaria cialis canada a vendre zithromax tablets used for equivalent of viagra in homeopathy is imuran safer than prednisone viagra name brand online viagra available in tooting uk fabian essays in socialism the book book author prednisone 20 mg for pets clomid for men prices atorvachol 80 mg prednisone zovirax 800 mg posologie citrate comprar viagra seguro internet canada is viagra over the counter dropropizina jarabe generico do viagra donde comprar priligy en lima how does doxycycline 100mg work over counter viagra like drugs viagra in sauna viagra from mexico walmart can i take viagra to australia with me shelcal 500 mg metformin ciprofloxacin hcl 500 mg y su uso cipro xr 1000 mg 3 comprimidos cipro for uti how many mgs cialis 25 mg. 3 buy generic viagra buy finasteride cheap 1 mg finasteride daily without minoxidil at what age can you take viagra floresta verde generico do viagra treat hyponatremia lasix can i take viagra with kidney problems viagra names in pakistan hyderabad were to buy viagra in bali endone 50 mg zoloft when do i take a pregnancy test after clomid confezione cialis 5 mg purchase cialis from online how much does it cost for clomid priligy 30 mg precious moments propecia 0 5 mg effective ampicillin capsules bp 500 mg naproxen cialis morning wood prednisolone 5mg kaufen viagra in india tamil notes premastan gel generico de cialis zithromax available in south africa will ciprofloxacin 500 mg treat hpv prix du viagra dans les pharmacies best buy online propecia consigo comprar viagra sem receita medica best price viagra 90505 which works the best cialis or viagra ciprofloxacin 500 mg mental changes viagra tablets price in lahore pakistan postcode onde comprar o medicamento cytotec dental implant specialists in maui ha boots doxycycline cost max dosage of cialis comprar viagra trujillo cipro resistance in india what is generic prednisone called propranolol la 120 mg can you buy viagra in thailand us dollars stopp 150 mg viagra buy cialis professional usa 15 minoxidil with finasteride cost price comparison of viagra 100mg the best moisturizer to use while on accutane doxycycline hyclate as acne treatment cialis wholesale online usa doxycycline and rifampin in mrsa cost of ciprodex otic drops zenegra generic viagra viagra online canada pharmacy without dr prescriptions tadalafil 5mg uk viagra best insurance carrera crossfire 2 womens reviews on viagra 160 mg slow release propranolol 10mg generic finasteride nz herald zithromax z pack antibiotic cost propranolol hydrochloride 80 mg viagra online united states no rx viagra vente libre montreal metformin in turkey good viagra in india best alien isolation reactions to prednisone can postmenopausal women take propecia every other day accutane digestive disorders orfiril long 1000 mg wirkung viagra cost of viagra vs cialis vs livator how quickly does cialis start to work viagra online bestellen ohne rezept erfahrungen grinder reviews herbal viagra bisacodyl 10 mg zetpil bijsluiter cialis acquistare cialis generico online bible diflucan yeast infection cost order metformin dergboadre twins clomid dosage buy lasix without prescriptions what is walmarts price on viagra over the counter viagra alternative at boots brand name cialis on sale buy viagra in the us cialis 5 mg daily coupons online finasteride stada 5mg opipramol 50 mg zoloft color of generic viagra propecia in new york cialis brand 5 mg clotrimazole bayhealth 100 mg comprimidos viagra clomid india wikipedia formulario 12p donde comprar viagra 300 mg wellbutrin 50 mg zoloft while breastfeeding aliud pharma sildenafil generic cheap viagra 120mg online viagra 25 mg effetti comprar cytotec en new york cost of cialis how much 20 controindicazioni del cialis 5 mg best viagra to take get viagra chemist main distributors of viagra in pakistan can you take clomid if you are ovulate cipromax 500 mg ciprofloxacin comprar viagra yahoo doxycycline monodox reviews for acne ampicillin dosage for infants do boots chemist sell viagra prednisone 20 mg medicine liquid cialis dubai beste wirkung cialis clomid sore throat in the morning what mg does accutane come in is it safe to take 20mg cialis low post ovulation temps clomid online cialis 2 5mg lilly onlinepharmacy md zithromax cheaper alternative propecia best site to buy viagra purchase viagra for women online cialis generico en farmacias similares year supply of propecia cost is accutane safe to take lasix water pills and weight loss propranolol and paroxetine uk prednisolone 20 mg posologie amoxicilline 24hr delivery of viagra how long does 10mg of prednisone stay in your system bula annita 500 mg metformin contraindication of metformin in pregnancy get doxycycline over the canada british columbia cheapgenerics viagra ru reliable source generic viagra buy cialis original medicinali generici cialis information viagra to pay with paypal cialis online generic usa clomid bloating in pct can viagra give harder erections in young men what is the generic drug for zoloft prednisone 30 mg day para sirve cialis tadalafil 20 mg finasteride price in pakistan samsung best sunscreen to use on accutane cialis generico femminile para que sirve la ciprofloxacino 500 mg wikipedia generic over sea viagra how long does cialis stay in the blood legit website to buy clomid cheap lasix tqeovertoz cheap viagra canada pharmacy online is cialis made in india any good is it safe to take cialis with ginko biloba reviews of viagra in india cheapest accutane without insurance 60 mg prednisone for 5 days why do use viagra viagra and blood disorders how long does it take for ciprolex 500 mg to work generic viagra costs como puedo comprar viagra por internet buy viagra at safeway doxycycline to treat mastitis what is the walmart price for cialis 20mg want buy viagra in edmonton over the counter renault cipro 85 review how does viagra work in 30yo man uk pharmacy viagra socialism and democracy in europe famous books diflucan in dialysis patients natural viagra alternatives cialis availability in singapore uso cialis generico help getting pregnant clomid dose to 50mg buy documento generico de cialis sildenafil ratiopharm kaufen rezeptfrei discount cialis pro lorotec 10 mg prednisone egipt viagra price process of getting prescribed clomid wal finite generic for zoloft name of the indian viagra and their price scoliosis specialists in texas does generic metformin look like dosage for amoxil for adults viagra cost of shipping pasos para usar pastillas cytotec cialis time in bloodstream prednisone 40 mg and drug inter prednisone clears acne viagra 100mg street value how much does viagra coast at walmart propecia generic brand review where can i buy viagra over the counter in sf can you buy viagra in tijuana mexico viagra is not working for me clomid 25 mg per day dr. crisler buy viagra london where buy zoloft online sertraline minoxidil reviews and propecia sildenafil citrate in fruits and vegetables metformin in der ssw does tadalafil come in capsules does prednisone have tylenol in it cost of cialis for daily use at walgreens galenico finasteride cost is cialis prescription prix cialis en tunisie metformin 850 mg brandsmart why use metformin in ivf effetto cialis 10 mg review quality online viagra dapoxetine brand names in pakistan new season accutane 10 mg per week como devo usar viagra is viagra a scheduled drug viagra tablets prise in pakistan can you take excedrin while on clomid 25 mg viagra wirkung amoxil sachet 3gm price in eu viagra generico senza ricetta in italia jeanette inderal generic 100 mg zoloft withdrawal effects zoloft nursing implications man in hospital after injecting viagra accutane in romania ampicillin 500 mg four times a day medical abbreviation viagra super force generic cialis viagra in the uk over the counter cialis in ny doxycycline for malaria over the counter Kiwipolitico » Blog Archive » Something to do in Wellington.

Something to do in Wellington.

datePosted on 11:50, May 8th, 2014 by Pablo

On May 20, 2014 from 6PM-7:30PM Diplosphere is hosting a panel discussion titled “Drone Strikes: Are They in New Zealand’s Interest?” The event will be hosted by Dr. Kennedy Graham MP-Green Party and will take place at the Theatrette, Parliament Buildings, Wellington. The hosts ask that people register for the event, which they can do by contacting Maty Nikkhou-O’Brien at the following email address: mnobrien@diplosphere.org

The panel Chair is Dr. Roderick Alley of Victoria University, who has just published a thorough examination of drone warfare. The panelists are Professor Richard Jackson of the National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies at the University of Otago, investigative journalist Nicky Hager and myself.

It should be an interesting discussion. I will try to place the emergence of drone warfare in context before debating its legality and utility.

59 Responses to “Something to do in Wellington.”

  1. paul scott on May 8th, 2014 at 19:49

    You’re joking Pablo, what sensible person will turn up to hear Graham the extreme left wank, the best he can do is put up a green sign in the house, and white hair intellectual poofter rubbish. Lets get on with the drone and kill the people we need to kill, Muslim extremist. Death to Islam terror

  2. Pablo on May 8th, 2014 at 20:43

    Paul: Please refrain from personal attacks and aimless diatribes. It is not helpful.

  3. Steerforth on May 9th, 2014 at 03:11

    Quite right Pablo, personal insults have no place in the blogosphere. I always enjoy coming to Kiwipolitico because I know here that there is no risk of anyone being personally insulted even if they disagree with you.

  4. Pablo on May 9th, 2014 at 07:58

    Even though I have fallen short of the standard from time to time, what ire has been displayed has been directed at trolls and fools who deliberately set out to hijack threads or engage in pointless argument about incidentals and irrelevancies.

    Moreover, any unpleasantries seen here pale in comparison to those regularly displayed on most NZ political blogs.

  5. Tommy Traddles on May 9th, 2014 at 09:01

    Hi Pablo I find it very ironic that in the same post asking others not to level personal insults you describe people who disagree with you as “fools”.

  6. Pablo on May 9th, 2014 at 12:00


    You need to work on your reading comprehension. I wrote that the fools in question deliberately hijack threads with incidentals and irrelevancies. That is different than disagreeing with me, which plenty of people have done without adverse consequence.

  7. Phil Sage on May 10th, 2014 at 03:10

    With quality commentary like this Pablo it must be really satisfying to maintain this blog.

    It is great that there is sufficient interest even to hold an event like this in Wellington even though the speakers seem to be from a consistent side of the political spectrum.

    Will anybody be arguing in favour of drones and their ability to take out the enemy leadership with very low risk to own forces? I see the Americans have used it very successfully against AQ. Islamism is committed to the worldwide caliphate and the world is as it is, not simply as some on the left would wish it to be. Drones are the first stage in the robotisation of warfare. They represent a very effective technological lead to make up for the modern democratic tendency not to want to wage war with actual people or actual consequences. Will you be addressing the technical future of warfare as part of utility or simply asking whether it achieves anything? Will you be discussing the possible delegation of rules of engagement to a computer should communication be lost?

    From a utility perspective the long flying surveillance drones would be much more effective at fisheries protection for NZ than the current resources.

  8. Tommy Traddles on May 10th, 2014 at 05:29

    Nonetheless, the message is still “no personal insults unless Pablo thinks you deserve it”.

  9. Pablo on May 10th, 2014 at 07:24


    It looks like I will be the “conservative” on the panel. I intend to contextualize the use of drones both strategically and technologically, then talk about the legal questions surrounding their use as lethal weapons (all in 7 minutes). I will note the utility of drones for myriad non-lethal tasks (which is 90 percent plus of what they do), and the need to regulate them both in civil as well as military aviation. I will point out that other than Pakistan and Afghanistan, no country has objected to the use of lethal drones or abdicated their future use by their own forces. And of course I will note that they are only efficient against targets that do not have effective air defenses.

  10. Chris Waugh on May 10th, 2014 at 12:55

    Phil, of the numerous questions your comment raises: Are you comfortable with the possibility of autonomous drones flying around shooting at people they deem to be targets? Are people smart enough to programme computers to be smart enough to spot the difference between people going about their daily business and people up to no good? As it is, even with humans pulling the trigger, there seems to be an awful lot of innocents getting caught up in drone strikes.

    Pablo: You’ve only got seven minutes?! Good luck.

  11. paul scott on May 10th, 2014 at 19:56

    In what way is my writing personal and violent against our dear country New Zealand Pablo,
    I do thank you and respect opinion, but Islam terrorism is not personal Pablo, that is the whole point, Green poofter is green poofter Pablo , knock knock knock on the door

  12. Clyde Cash on May 10th, 2014 at 19:57

    A shame they couldn’t get a lawyer to talk about the legal implications.

  13. paul scott on May 10th, 2014 at 20:00

    all Islam terrorist die, I am not a Christian, I am just a New Zealander ordinary ,all iSLAM terrorist die.

  14. Pablo on May 10th, 2014 at 20:05


    You seem to be of the whaleoil school of bigotry: profess to be open minded about most things but use words like “poofter” as a pejorative. Forget about Green. How do you feel about “ginger?”

    And even if someone is red haired, Green and gay, what is the problem with that?

    TT’s comments notwithstanding, we try to keep ascriptive prejudice out of the discussion, and if it takes me getting harsh on trolls and fools, so be it.

    As I said before, please stop with the ad hominum attacks.

  15. paul scott on May 10th, 2014 at 20:11

    readers it is along way between me and Pablo, I was originally violent here, I try to come in here as a good contributor

  16. Peggoty on May 11th, 2014 at 11:36

    Paul you are a neoconservative troll of the worst kind. No thoughts emit from your mouth just the gaseous emissions of a rotten stomach and decaying moral fibre. Why don’t you crawl off somewhere where your intellectual abilities are more adequate to the tone of discourse, like Whale Oil or the Kiwiblog sewer? There your rampant personal attacks will be most welcome as they are par for the course.

  17. Pablo on May 11th, 2014 at 15:23

    OK, lets call it a day on the personal slams. I hope to see some of you on May 20!

  18. Phil Sage on May 11th, 2014 at 21:03

    Pablo – That is really quite funny. You are American ex DOD and therefore clearly a raving neocon. No stereotyping there then. I would suggest your 7 minutes best spent by assuming anybody willing to turn out has already done a fair amount of reading and be quote knowledgeable. As organiser and audience member of those kind of events I always chafe when someone assumes ignoramuses turn up. It is a self selecting audience. You have 7 minutes to make about 3 points that will be worth discussing.
    China is introducing drones. There has not yet been an instance of drone on drone warfare but it will come. A swarm of drones could overwhelm any air defence. Rather than “efficient air defence” how about any air defence.
    Chris – specific human targeting -Not yet. Targeting a tank or anybody carrying an RPG is possible. I note that the drones (no link sorry) appear to allow more specific targeting than the prior state where a cruise missile would take out entire compound to get a target. Now they can observe and take out a vehicle containing the target. That is an overall reduction in harm.
    Discussion of legality is only going to tie one side in knots. All of the historic conventions on behaviour during war arose where both sides considered themselves to have a degree of civilisation and an accountable future. Those following a 1300 year old book have faith but no civilisation.

  19. Pablo on May 12th, 2014 at 08:10


    I manually sifted through over a 1000 spam messages going back the last twelve hours. Your original post and the follow ups were numbers 993-995. I have posted the original. Should the problem occur again please send me the time that you tried to post, as that allows me to go directly to the time stamps on spam in the folder (we get 2-4000 spams a day, so knowing the time you posted and allowing for the 12 hours between the UK and NZ makes finding it a bit easier).

  20. Micawber on May 12th, 2014 at 23:19

    Paul I hope you give Rod Alley the thrashing he deserves.

    His paper is just the work of a naive ‘academic’ blowing hot air on a topic he has no experience with.

    He has zero experience in the strategic arena let alone the deployment of kinetic operations. Just another of the fatuous self-important windbags NZ academia is infested with.

    Please Paul, take him down a peg… or six!

  21. Micawber on May 12th, 2014 at 23:22

    @Phil: As usual your naivete is staggering. Perhaps you and Rod should team up?

    While it is technically true that enough drones can overwhelm air defenses, your logic is akin to saying that enough world war i infantrymen can overwhelm a machine gun nest… technically true but it is horrifically ineffcicient. The best way to penetrate air defenses is via low observability fourth and fifth generation fighter aircraft which, while individually expensive, are far more economically efficient to do so than to blanket them with drones.

    As Pablo rightly says, drones remain economically efficient only in a situation where air superiority is assured and will remain the case until technology makes a leap that evenb the best experts (like Pablo) forecast as thirty to forty years away, at minimum.

    Drones are the weapon of modern conflicts largely because the great powers of our era only fight assymetrical wars.

  22. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 01:57

    I posted a few minutes ago Pablo and seem to be going straight to spam.

  23. Micawber on May 13th, 2014 at 06:37

    Seems Pablo has finally got tired of your neoconservative Bush apologia, Phil.

    Time to find another blog that is more indulgent of your trolling. Maybe your mates at Whale Oil will wipe away your dude tears.

  24. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 07:54

    micawber FOD

  25. Pablo on May 13th, 2014 at 07:57


    Sorry, I cleared the spam folder (1500 worth) before I saw your message. Can you re-post the thought.

    Micawber: Rod is a decent chap. He only recently got into researching on drones and has a idealist/constructivist perspective on international relations, so his views on the subject tend to reflect that orientation.

    Your response to Phil’s claims about swarming air defenses with drones are spot on given current technologies. If anything, nanotech will introduce miniaturized and stealthy lethality to UAVs, at which point things get complicated for defenses.

  26. Micawber on May 13th, 2014 at 18:43

    Phil: I see any dissenting opinion leaves you speechless. Too much time inside the Kiwiblog echo chamber huh.

    Pablo: New Zealand academia is in crisis. It is staffed by second rate failures who couldn’t hack it in real Univerisites (eg those in the USA) with no concept of independent scholarship or intellectual voracity and who are reduced to timeserving, yes-manning and pounding out endless vapid thinkpieces on subjects they know nothing about.

    The idea that Rod Alley, an obscure academic with zero military experience or knowledge, can comment knowingly on drone strikes, is ridiculous.

    You will see when you discuss with him that he cannot match your depth of knowledge in this area.

  27. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:33

    Micawber. It would take anyone with a brain greater than the size of a walnut to see there is a difference between a pile of metal and human beings. Did anybody hold services for all those poor artillery shells that were expended during WWI on knocking out machine gun “nests”.
    The Russians won WWII for the allies through attrition of German forces.
    Your approach is the hubristic glorification of “heroes” vs the massing of forces. You are simply unable to see how technology changes everything about warfare.

  28. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:40

    One of your F35 is around $125m. For that I could get 100 Chinese predators armed with 2 missiles each and around 400 decoy missiles. Your tactics would be aimed at bringing home your expensive pilot and aircraft. Mine would simply view an autonomous aircraft as ordinance. The main cost of military and civilian technology is not the intrinsic value of the parts but the cost of development. Technology is cheap to replicate but hard to develop.

  29. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:46

    Your 30-40 year time horizon is simply ridiculous. It is only 10 years since the first drone was commissioned. 25 years since the invention of the internet. Growth in technology is exponential.

    Throughout history the massing of lower quality forces has proven effective than a small number of elite.

  30. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:52

    The economic efficiency is very firmly with industrial scale manufacture of low cost drones. The key technological problem to solve is communication from a controller to the unit. By programming a set geographic kill zone and recognition of enemy weapons into a large number of cheap weapons it would be technologically possible now to make up for the likely jamming of communication signals

  31. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:56

    Only around 10,000 Patriot missiles are declared to have been built. Every single decoy would need to be shot down just in case. The manned fighter aircraft is in a similar place to the battleship. It has been made obsolete by technology. A computer will react faster and more accurately and the cost of loss is substantially lower.

  32. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 21:59

    New Zealand universities rank very well in global comparisons given the small size of the country. Auckland would rank in top 10 UK universities.
    Micawber you sound like a whiny progressive with an inferiority complex.

  33. Phil Sage on May 13th, 2014 at 22:02

    Pablo – excuse the number of posts. It was only by separating one large post into a large number of smaller chunks that I was able to overwhelm your spam filter. There is a message there. :)

  34. Micawber on May 14th, 2014 at 00:18

    Phil, I will leave it to Pablo to explain the sad state of NZ universities, he is better informed than me.

    As to your laughable prognostications they are the naive witterings of a military neophyte. I am sure you have read lots of masturbatory Tom Clancy books. Here is the obvious difference – a 125 million fighter has a good chance of surviving the mission, the same number of drones will all be destroyed to fulfil the same mission. Treating them as ordinance guarantees they are wasted. And this is your argument for efficiency? Utterly laughable.

    It’s true the internet is only 25 years old, although you are once again speaking out of your arse – drones are not 10 years old, the first military drones were used by the USA in Lebanon in 1986. Believe me, 30 years for drones to be capable of evading air defenses is taking into account the current advance of technology.

    Once again – why don’t you shut up about matters you clearly have no clue on? The internet is full of senseless mumblings by uninformed proles enough without you adding to it.

  35. Phil Sage on May 14th, 2014 at 02:36

    Micawber – I will concede the earlier use of surveillance drone but as the subject was offensive capability it is only since 2001 the predator has been armed.

    You seem to mistake aggression and arrogance for effective argument. It makes you seem more like a pompous ass. Are you really saying that your fantastic F35 could destroy every single drone and decoy before it had to land? Every single time? The Tomahawk is a $1m piece of ordinance. You are sure that 99 of those and 400 drones launched against a single F35 would come off worst? 100% every time?

    For that is the statistical requirement not to be overwhelmed for the same economic cost.

  36. Micawber on May 14th, 2014 at 05:57

    Phil, we were comparing which could better take out a well-defended target – 100 drones or one F-35.

    If you are talking about whether an F-35 would be able to survive an attack by one hundred drones, the answer is obviously yes, because there are no drones fitted with air-to-air armament. To illustrate this, the Tomahawk is an ASM missile – it has no capacity to take out airborne targets. No, the F-35 wouldn’t carry enough ordinance to shoot down all 100 drones, but it wouldn’t have to – it could just sail past as the drones watched ineffectively, accomplish its mission, and go home.

    You really are exposing astounding ignorance here, even for a right winger. Your scifi fantasies about air to air drones belong with dragon swords and bad romantic poetry and other creations of the ‘imagination’ of 15 year old basement dwellers.

  37. Pablo on May 14th, 2014 at 11:43

    Interesting debate about drones versus manned aircraft (minus the insults) when it comes to air defenses. I think that the “swarm” theory can only apply if drone speeds and stealth increase dramatically, as they are now very vulnerable to air and land based interception.

    As I noted earlier, I think that the future of armed drones lies more in miniturization designed for tactical applications, since conventional missiles (however launched) are already capable of penetrating air defenses and destroying hardened targets. That is one problem with current UAVs like the Predator, Reaper and even Global Hawks: they are too light to carry heavy payloads and too slow and clumsy to out-manuever missile or massed fire defenses around hardened targets. That could change and clearly work is continuing on increasing drone capabilities, but I do not see the “swarm” tactic as being effective anytime soon.

    As for the state of NZ academia. The quality was much higher when I arrived in 1997. Since the imposition of the new managerial approach to university governance, the quality has dropped exponentially, and more is spent on glossy PR campaigns than entire departmental budgets. And those campaigns often contain lies: for example, the Political Studies department at Auckland now advertises that it is ranked 20-something in the world despite the exodus of most of its best staff in the last decade, and it having never been in the top 50 ever before. The claim is laughable, because there are at least 30 better political science/studies departments in the US alone, to say nothing of the rest of the world.

    Having said that, I think that Rod has represented Victoria U quite well in his writing, so disagree that he is among the losers that all too frequently inhabit contemporary NZ academia. He may not be an expert on drones but he has written well on other subjects and has usefully contributed to the NZ foreign policy debates.

  38. Micawber on May 14th, 2014 at 18:17

    Couldn’t have said it better myself Pablo. Rod is an example of the biggest problem at all levels of NZ society – commentary is dominated by the uninformed. And Rod is clueless about drones, but he still feels he has a license to bang on about them. Please put him in his place at this debate.

  39. Phil Sage on May 14th, 2014 at 23:30

    micawber. Nitpicking. I used the cost of the tomahawk as it is ordinance and similar in cost to a chinese predator in an economic argument. It says more about you than me that you think drones armed with AAM is in the realms of fantasy rather than the more simple fact that current tasks have not been against air capable enemies.

    In modern warfare between major powers a number have the ability to completely destroy the enemy. So all out war is currently extremely unlikely. Political will to act is tied very tightly to the likely number of human casualties and their effectiveness. There is a very good current example where use of drones would illustrate my point. Syria. The task is to impose a no fly zone. Would you start with F35’s and rely on their ability to react more quickly or would you send in offensive drones with AAM and ASM to overwhelm the presently unknown Russian SAM combat capability in Syria. You cannot simply bomb or send in missiles because you do not know where the air defence is hidden. Sidewinders mounted on predators against Russian migs. hmmm. The public does not care about the monetary cost of used up ordinance. They do care about pilots held hostage when they are shot down.

  40. Phil Sage on May 14th, 2014 at 23:37

    micawber. I am genuinely curious as to why you seem so intent on pushing Pablo to attack Dr Alley for having the temerity to voice an opinion in public and why you are so scathing about my views. Pablo is engaging in an exercise to discuss use of drones that will have the effect of raising informed public awareness and knowledge. But you seem to think he should make an arsehole of himself. Why? Is it because you think only the informed elite should be “allowed” to voice opinions and then only in their areas of specialism after extended study?

  41. Phil Sage on May 15th, 2014 at 00:19

    Oh and guru micawber, check our Pablo’s favourite research source to confirm the CURRENT air to air capability of the Predator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-1_Predator
    2 × AGM-114 Hellfire (MQ-1B)
    4 × AIM-92 Stinger (MQ-1B)
    6 × Griffin air-to-surface missiles[100]”

    I do believe the Stinger is an air to air missile. Lets look at the Stinger wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-92_Stinger

    “Operational history[edit]
    An Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a Predator drone performing reconnaissance over the no fly zone in Iraq on 23 December 2002. Predators had been armed with Stingers, and were being used to “bait” Iraqi fighter planes, then run. In this incident, the Predator didn’t run, but instead fired one of the Stingers after the MiG engaged with its own missiles. The Stinger’s heat-seeker probably became “distracted” by the MiG’s missile and so missed the MiG, and the Predator was destroyed. This was the first time in history a conventional aircraft and a drone had engaged in combat.”

    That makes you something. I will leave you to figure out what.

  42. Micawber on May 15th, 2014 at 06:28

    Nice backtrack, Phil – I am sure your talking about tomahawks shooting down planes was indeed some kind of cunning rhetorical ploy. You continue to expect us to treat you like some kind of strategic genius because you have read a couple of wikipedia articles. You remind me of the ridiculous blowhards who masturbate over SAS novels, sound off about military tactics in the local pub, consider themselves on par with Monty or Zhukov, and are quietly convinced that, if they were put in control of the War in Afghanistan, they would do a pretty decent job of it. You are a naif in a dangerous world, but I suppose it’s good that you confine yourself to trolling Pablo.

    As for your Wikipedia link*, the fact that the drone failed to engage seems like an argument in my favour. But I’m sure, just as you claim that you never said Tomahawks could shoot down planes, you will soon be telling me that you never said that drones can shoot down planes either.

    Ultimately you are a useless troll, and I would say time will tell which of us is right, but I’m sure in five years time you will have forgotten your pathetic navel gazing and will instead be masturbating to some other military ‘strategic theory’ you got from a third rate Tom Clancy knockoff read between bouts of internet porn in your mom’s basement.

    *By the way, take my advice or leave it, but insulting Pablo by implying he relies exclusively on Wikipedia isn’t likely to be a good tactic here.

  43. Murdstone on May 15th, 2014 at 06:30

    Sad to see what passes for debate here…

  44. Phil Sage on May 15th, 2014 at 06:59

    guru – you really are some piece of work. I never purported to be anything other than an enthusiastic amateur. You on the other hand imply you have some amazing expertise.
    “If you are talking about whether an F-35 would be able to survive an attack by one hundred drones, the answer is obviously yes, because there are no drones fitted with air-to-air armament”.
    So 12 years ago a predator was armed with an air to air missile. Acting as bait and kind of proving my point. It did engage but was unsuccessful. If there had been 99 other predators around it programmed for counter battery type fire it would be far more likely to have been successful. Which has been my point from the start despite making some specific knowledge gaps obvious.
    You on the other hand can speak to yourself with
    “Just another of the fatuous self-important windbags”
    “As usual your naivete is staggering”
    “Time to find another blog that is more indulgent of your trolling”
    “commentary is dominated by the uninformed.. ..clueless about drones, but he still feels he has a license to bang on about them. ”
    ” I’m sure in five years time you will have forgotten your pathetic navel gazing and will instead be masturbating to some other military ‘strategic theory’ you got from a third rate Tom Clancy knockoff read between bouts of internet porn in your mom’s basement.”
    Pablo has a well known aversion to wiki. I like it because it is good public knowledge and occasionally mildly wind him up about it. He takes it in good humour. You on the other hand are clearly a cock of the highest order. Were you bullied as a child and now strike back from behind the protection of a keyboard and a username?

  45. Micawber on May 15th, 2014 at 07:05

    If you’re going to stoop to personal attacks, Phil, I see no point in continuing this ‘conversation’. This blog is a place for measured and academic debate, not slinging insults. It’s a shame your fourth form home teacher didn’t explain the difference, but that’s not my problem.

  46. Phil Sage on May 15th, 2014 at 07:10

    “undefined” is my comment.

  47. Phil Sage on May 15th, 2014 at 07:21

    ” This blog is a place for measured and academic debate, not slinging insults.”
    My chin is on the floor. G.O.B.S.M.A.C.K.E.D!

    Thats what you call bait and switch. Unbelievable.
    I think we can agree that you are wrong on the substantive points which are that drone technology now is more economically effective than manned stealth planes and we do not need to wait 30 years. Nice try though.

  48. Pablo on May 15th, 2014 at 07:32

    I think we should call it a day on this debate. In spite of our differences I have plenty of time for Phil, and Micawber has added some good flavor to the commentary. I see merit in both sides of the argument about drones versus manned aircraft confronting air defenses, although I think that the prospect of “swarm” drone attacks is still a ways off (although the Chinese clearly have been developing a type of swarm attack strategy using surface to surface and air to surface missiles against US naval forces off-shore, which could eventuate in the incorporation of drone attacks as part of the weapons package).

    Anyway, I have just been told that Wayne Mapp (former Defense Minister) and some academic from Victoria have joined the panel. Given the very short presentation time limits, I wonder what can really be said in any depth in an hour and a half with five panelists speaking before Q and A.

  49. Micawber on May 15th, 2014 at 08:53

    You’re right Pablo, the saturation-of-defenses doctrine is a valid one – not a new one, though, it was Soviet naval doctrine since at least the Gorshkov era. But a ‘drone swarm’ is just massively inefficient – there is no point using drones to saturate defenses when missiles can do so just as effectively, and more cheaply. The main benefit of drones is their ability to loiter, which is great when fighting a low intensity conflict but not particularly useful when making a massive attack in a small time window. I would expect that drones would be more likely to serve a recon/targetting role in such a strike than making up the bulk of it. But of course you know this already.

    As for the panel, I am guessing that featherweights like Mapp are there to make lightweights like Alley look like they have some tiny sliver of gravitas by comparison.

    Ninety minutes is not even close to enough time to cover the issue with anything like the depth it needs, which simply feeds into my earlier point about the puddle-deep vapidity of what fraudulently calls itself “academia” in New Zealand.

  50. Phil Sage on May 15th, 2014 at 09:15

    Knock the kids heads together Pablo. ;-)
    Please send my regards to Wayne, although he probably wont remember me. He will be the most qualified on the panel to discuss military issues from a NZ perspective with no disrespect meant to yourself. Dr Mapp has served in the army, been Minister of Defence and has a doctorate in international law. I would LOVE to see Micgurus qualifications in comparison to that.
    At least you will no longer have to pretend to present the conservative viewpoint.
    Will you be taping and putting a link up online?

  51. Pablo on May 15th, 2014 at 09:50

    I had a good conversation with Maty, the organizer, and she clarified to me how the session will run. Wayne will comment at the end after the panelists have given their spiels.

    There are 110 people registered for the event so far, which would seem to indicate that there is a fair bit of interest in the subject. Good on Diplosphere for putting it together.

  52. Luke on May 18th, 2014 at 09:59

    +1 very much please for a live stream and/or recording. I’ve emailed Maty querying.

    If event was (or in future is) in Akl I would gladly volunteer time and equipment to deliver this.

    Pablo, sorry to hear of your spam woes. One of my roles is as a web project manager and also do a bit of coding; more than happy to assist you gratis on adding a CAPTCHA or other challenge-response solution to the comments facility. Least I can do after the years of enlightenment you’ve freely shared. Please drop me an email if this is of interest.

  53. paul scott on May 20th, 2014 at 10:50

    Tommy Traddles on May 9th, 2014 at 09:01

    haha Tommy Traddles, so funny, maybe we both get banned, you have to be careful Tommy this is not an open discussion, the fool on the hill sits perfectly still and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round .

    Hi Pablo I find it very ironic that in the same post asking others not to level personal insults you describe people who disagree with you as “fools”.

  54. Pablo on May 20th, 2014 at 10:59


    You should know better than most that I consider some people fools not because they disagree with me but because of their tone, ignorance or tangental and useless digressions from the subject.

    For example, when you keep things civil (rare, I know) you are left alone. The last person to incur my ire, the hubris machine known as Hugh, quit voluntarily from commenting on my posts (much to my pleasure) but has now resurfaced upon Lew’s return to blogging.

    I really do not think that it is much to ask to keep things on topic and civil, and have already admitted several times that I have been fault for responding harshly to comments from time to time. But that is not about disagreeing so much as about thread-jacking or spouting uninformed BS on subjects I am well familiar with.

  55. paul scott on May 21st, 2014 at 10:07

    yes, I will do what you say Pablo, I will try to fit in to general format, I am a refugee from Farrar, I see this is a political column, many of your people have brains bigger than mine, I don’t post troll intentionally , I just write where it leads me

  56. paul scott on May 21st, 2014 at 10:41

    At the bottom of his heart he was no fool on the hill at all, , Paul Buchanan strict and disciplined as he was and is, but I bet nothing came of your poofter conference about drones Paul. I was glad you Paul had the straight forward guts, to tell us who this dog was, and the way things are, it is such relief to leave Farrar and the rednecks

  57. Micawber on May 22nd, 2014 at 04:47

    ” I bet nothing came of your poofter conference ”

    Jesus christ, Paul, really?

    “I am a refugee from Farrar”

    Oh, right.

  58. paul scott on May 25th, 2014 at 12:31

    just joking Micawber, we have a country to run, we love New Zealand surely you realise that

  59. Phil Sage on June 27th, 2015 at 02:32

    Pablo/Micawber Drone swarms are coming. Now official US policy


Leave a Reply

Name: (required)
Email: (required) (will not be published)