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	<title>Comments on: Heartless commuters</title>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20637</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20637</guid>
		<description>In the end the need is simple - when a mum or dad comes onto a carriage with young babies, more able passengers need to give up their seat. It&#039;s called manners and it is found from France to China. Manners are a hallmark of civilisation. 

Never mind:
- the breakdown of the KiwiRail Network
- the training of the Operator
- whether or not there was some legitimate cause for anger.

My observation is that many passengers on a train act as if they are completely removed from the other passengers, avoiding conversation etc. So is there some  collective psychology at force that does not help exhibition of manners?</description>
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<p>In the end the need is simple &#8211; when a mum or dad comes onto a carriage with young babies, more able passengers need to give up their seat. It&#8217;s called manners and it is found from France to China. Manners are a hallmark of civilisation. </p>
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<p>Never mind:<br />
- the breakdown of the KiwiRail Network<br />
- the training of the Operator<br />
- whether or not there was some legitimate cause for anger.</p>
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<p>My observation is that many passengers on a train act as if they are completely removed from the other passengers, avoiding conversation etc. So is there some  collective psychology at force that does not help exhibition of manners?
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		<title>By: cowbell</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20147</link>
		<dc:creator>cowbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 23:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20147</guid>
		<description>On the bus yesterday someone got out of their seat to give a mother and her young child somewhere to sit. She wasn&#039;t even breastfeeding.

We&#039;re not completely screwed yet :)</description>
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<p>On the bus yesterday someone got out of their seat to give a mother and her young child somewhere to sit. She wasn&#8217;t even breastfeeding.</p>
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<p>We&#8217;re not completely screwed yet :)
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		<title>By: Bruce Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20142</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20142</guid>
		<description>I have a few niggles about the story presented, and until I hear the train operator&#039;s version, I&#039;d reserve judgement.

There were apparently seats, but the author didn&#039;t ask either the other passengers, or the passenger operator, for assistance. She condemns them without even giving them the opportunity to assist. 

Presumably the children were secure in the pushchair until she removed one for breastfeeding, at which stage the operator passed, and became concerned.

There&#039;s no comment from the PO that he was concerned about the breastfeeding ( and why is his age and ethnicity an issue? ), but became concerned about safety once a child was released from the pushchair.

If there is not a safe place, but there is potential space, any passenger should be insisting that the operator ask the other passengers to move if they don&#039;t repsond to a polite request.</description>
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<p>I have a few niggles about the story presented, and until I hear the train operator&#8217;s version, I&#8217;d reserve judgement.</p>
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<p>There were apparently seats, but the author didn&#8217;t ask either the other passengers, or the passenger operator, for assistance. She condemns them without even giving them the opportunity to assist. </p>
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<p>Presumably the children were secure in the pushchair until she removed one for breastfeeding, at which stage the operator passed, and became concerned.</p>
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<p>There&#8217;s no comment from the PO that he was concerned about the breastfeeding ( and why is his age and ethnicity an issue? ), but became concerned about safety once a child was released from the pushchair.</p>
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<p>If there is not a safe place, but there is potential space, any passenger should be insisting that the operator ask the other passengers to move if they don&#8217;t repsond to a polite request.
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20141</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20141</guid>
		<description>RL, your arguments are fair, and a large part of the reason why I haven&#039;t put the boot into KiwiRail in Wellington -- I know they&#039;re not exactly operating under ideal conditions, and it&#039;s churlish to complain too much about what remains the best public transport network in the country. Add to that, the staff are excellent. I&#039;ve never struck a bad one.

ak, for what it&#039;s worth, I &lt;i&gt;loved&lt;/i&gt; how rude the Chinese were after being basically a celebrity foreigner in Korea for three years. I loved the fact that I was just another illiterate barbarian to them. I haven&#039;t experienced that anywhere else, really. So my description is not at all an insult, in that regard. 

L</description>
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<p>RL, your arguments are fair, and a large part of the reason why I haven&#8217;t put the boot into KiwiRail in Wellington &#8212; I know they&#8217;re not exactly operating under ideal conditions, and it&#8217;s churlish to complain too much about what remains the best public transport network in the country. Add to that, the staff are excellent. I&#8217;ve never struck a bad one.</p>
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<p>ak, for what it&#8217;s worth, I <i>loved</i> how rude the Chinese were after being basically a celebrity foreigner in Korea for three years. I loved the fact that I was just another illiterate barbarian to them. I haven&#8217;t experienced that anywhere else, really. So my description is not at all an insult, in that regard. </p>
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<p>L
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		<title>By: jcuknz</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20138</link>
		<dc:creator>jcuknz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20138</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like and am embarrassed by breast feeding mothers due to my 1930/40&#039;s upbringing but I recognise it is a silly problem I have.  I would echo the comment about unruly children all around the place and the lack of a little bit of sensible physical discipline missing it appears to me these days. Still they probably said that about me in those long gone days.  I think while the upgrade is going on people should withhold their crits, irritating and frustrating as they must be. But lucky you, we don&#039;t have passenger trains in my area, just the odd bus.</description>
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<p>I don&#8217;t like and am embarrassed by breast feeding mothers due to my 1930/40&#8242;s upbringing but I recognise it is a silly problem I have.  I would echo the comment about unruly children all around the place and the lack of a little bit of sensible physical discipline missing it appears to me these days. Still they probably said that about me in those long gone days.  I think while the upgrade is going on people should withhold their crits, irritating and frustrating as they must be. But lucky you, we don&#8217;t have passenger trains in my area, just the odd bus.
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		<title>By: ak</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20122</link>
		<dc:creator>ak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20122</guid>
		<description>Always fraught to generalise from single incidents, so here&#039;s a second: our first trip to China (&quot;rudest&quot; Lew? - does not compute - &quot;upfront&quot; or &quot;refreshingly unsophisticated&quot; maybe) is marked by the staggering and unforgettably sullen sarcasm of the A-town Air NZ flunky handling our domestic connections on return.  &quot;We&#039;re back in NZ&quot; writ large on the rueful faces of the party which had just experienced weeks of travel throughout a country teeming with optimism and pride: a country devoid of the dissipated, jaded, ennui-riddled after-effects of neo-liberalism&#039;s final, fatally-failed fling; a country steeped in high principle, forged tensile by oppression, and now poised to re-assume it&#039;s historical, inherent and deserved position as global hegemonic vanguard.

It&#039;s now the global equivalent of the Dilshan (not, significantly, the McCullum): the arrogance and force of Western economic greed and rapaciousness apparently adopted - to be (very shortly I fear) tipped adroitly for six.

The best the West can pray for this Lent is forgiveness.</description>
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<p>Always fraught to generalise from single incidents, so here&#8217;s a second: our first trip to China (&#8220;rudest&#8221; Lew? &#8211; does not compute &#8211; &#8220;upfront&#8221; or &#8220;refreshingly unsophisticated&#8221; maybe) is marked by the staggering and unforgettably sullen sarcasm of the A-town Air NZ flunky handling our domestic connections on return.  &#8220;We&#8217;re back in NZ&#8221; writ large on the rueful faces of the party which had just experienced weeks of travel throughout a country teeming with optimism and pride: a country devoid of the dissipated, jaded, ennui-riddled after-effects of neo-liberalism&#8217;s final, fatally-failed fling; a country steeped in high principle, forged tensile by oppression, and now poised to re-assume it&#8217;s historical, inherent and deserved position as global hegemonic vanguard.</p>
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<p>It&#8217;s now the global equivalent of the Dilshan (not, significantly, the McCullum): the arrogance and force of Western economic greed and rapaciousness apparently adopted &#8211; to be (very shortly I fear) tipped adroitly for six.</p>
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<p>The best the West can pray for this Lent is forgiveness.
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		<title>By: RedLogix</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20119</link>
		<dc:creator>RedLogix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 08:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20119</guid>
		<description>I really feel compelled to leap to the defense of the Wgtn rail system. Yes it&#039;s struggling with reliability... but that is the direct result of 25 yrs of deferred maintenance. The previous Labour govt committed something in the order of $350m, along with another chunk from the Regional Council. Around $70m was spent on 90 new units that scheduled to arrive from Korea in July, the balance being spent on a massive updating of track, overheads and stations. A full GPS based tracking system is underway that will integrate rail and bus services for passengers in real-time. 

Getting all this work done while the system is still running was always going to be a challenge. Some of the contractors have made some really dreadful installation errors, while at the same time engineering staff are battling to keep locos and carriages way beyond their use-by date going.

Three weeks ago a Wairarapa line driver &#039;ran a red-light&#039; in the Taita area, which automatically means he has to stand himself down and another driver found to resume. Result was a 90min hold-up for this train and four units blocked behind. What actually happened was that the driver hit a bad patch of fog, spotted the red-light about three seconds late, ran out of stopping distance in wet conditions and stopped less than a train length past the signal. Here&#039;s the rub... the 45yr old DC-Class loco&#039;s speedometer was faulty. Probably it should not have even been on the track that morning... but it was either that or no service at all!!! 

This is the kind of ragged edge staff are being forced to tread just to keep things going through this very tough period. They really don&#039;t need slagging off from the media and blogs... they KNOW perfectly well what they are up against.

Dr Cullen fully planned to re-invest in Kiwirail to get in back into something like modern shape, but this govt is starving it of capital, spending billions on useless dammed &quot;Roads of National Significance&quot; while cycnically letting railways (and coastal shipping) take last place.</description>
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<p>I really feel compelled to leap to the defense of the Wgtn rail system. Yes it&#8217;s struggling with reliability&#8230; but that is the direct result of 25 yrs of deferred maintenance. The previous Labour govt committed something in the order of $350m, along with another chunk from the Regional Council. Around $70m was spent on 90 new units that scheduled to arrive from Korea in July, the balance being spent on a massive updating of track, overheads and stations. A full GPS based tracking system is underway that will integrate rail and bus services for passengers in real-time. </p>
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<p>Getting all this work done while the system is still running was always going to be a challenge. Some of the contractors have made some really dreadful installation errors, while at the same time engineering staff are battling to keep locos and carriages way beyond their use-by date going.</p>
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<p>Three weeks ago a Wairarapa line driver &#8216;ran a red-light&#8217; in the Taita area, which automatically means he has to stand himself down and another driver found to resume. Result was a 90min hold-up for this train and four units blocked behind. What actually happened was that the driver hit a bad patch of fog, spotted the red-light about three seconds late, ran out of stopping distance in wet conditions and stopped less than a train length past the signal. Here&#8217;s the rub&#8230; the 45yr old DC-Class loco&#8217;s speedometer was faulty. Probably it should not have even been on the track that morning&#8230; but it was either that or no service at all!!! </p>
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<p>This is the kind of ragged edge staff are being forced to tread just to keep things going through this very tough period. They really don&#8217;t need slagging off from the media and blogs&#8230; they KNOW perfectly well what they are up against.</p>
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<p>Dr Cullen fully planned to re-invest in Kiwirail to get in back into something like modern shape, but this govt is starving it of capital, spending billions on useless dammed &#8220;Roads of National Significance&#8221; while cycnically letting railways (and coastal shipping) take last place.
</p>
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		<title>By: SPC</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20110</link>
		<dc:creator>SPC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 08:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The performance of the rail supervisor and the carriage guard was appalling. The supervisor behaved like a union rep and should have reprimanded the operator and apologised for the failure to provide a seat.</description>
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<p>The performance of the rail supervisor and the carriage guard was appalling. The supervisor behaved like a union rep and should have reprimanded the operator and apologised for the failure to provide a seat.
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20102</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 04:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20102</guid>
		<description>Andrew, the point of my list was that your assertion was falsifiable, and I falsified it. You&#039;ll have to come up with a better argument to explain the behaviour of Auckland commuters, because &quot;socialism&quot; or a variation thereof ain&#039;t going to cut it in this case. You&#039;re on your way there by distinguishing the different functions of government, but it&#039;s hardly a compelling case.

L</description>
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<p>Andrew, the point of my list was that your assertion was falsifiable, and I falsified it. You&#8217;ll have to come up with a better argument to explain the behaviour of Auckland commuters, because &#8220;socialism&#8221; or a variation thereof ain&#8217;t going to cut it in this case. You&#8217;re on your way there by distinguishing the different functions of government, but it&#8217;s hardly a compelling case.</p>
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<p>L
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20100</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20100</guid>
		<description>As Government has increasingly taken on the role of social provider we&#039;ve seen community based organizations that have historically provided help to those in need disappear. I think their disappearance is representative of a dramatic transforming of attitudes that includes the loss of the &quot;help thy neighbour&quot; attitude that used to be a big part of the NZ community culture.

I assume the point of your little list is that these socialist states still have more people with the &quot;help thy neighbour&quot; attitude than exists in NZ, but I doubt that these states provide as extensive a social welfare net as in NZ. People there still don&#039;t expect the Government to provide, in fact, as the growth of government in poorer nations is excessive for the wealth of these states, I suspect people in those countries expect very little from government.</description>
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<p>As Government has increasingly taken on the role of social provider we&#8217;ve seen community based organizations that have historically provided help to those in need disappear. I think their disappearance is representative of a dramatic transforming of attitudes that includes the loss of the &#8220;help thy neighbour&#8221; attitude that used to be a big part of the NZ community culture.</p>
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<p>I assume the point of your little list is that these socialist states still have more people with the &#8220;help thy neighbour&#8221; attitude than exists in NZ, but I doubt that these states provide as extensive a social welfare net as in NZ. People there still don&#8217;t expect the Government to provide, in fact, as the growth of government in poorer nations is excessive for the wealth of these states, I suspect people in those countries expect very little from government.
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20097</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ag, the author explained how she goes to some lengths to manage her kids so the disturbance to others is minimal. Do you just not believe her?

As to not wanting to see breastfeeding -- tough. Avert your eyes, or move. Honestly, is this the 1950s? Do you think women shouldn&#039;t go about unaccompanied in public, too?

L</description>
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<p>Ag, the author explained how she goes to some lengths to manage her kids so the disturbance to others is minimal. Do you just not believe her?</p>
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<p>As to not wanting to see breastfeeding &#8212; tough. Avert your eyes, or move. Honestly, is this the 1950s? Do you think women shouldn&#8217;t go about unaccompanied in public, too?</p>
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<p>L
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		<title>By: Ag</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20096</link>
		<dc:creator>Ag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20096</guid>
		<description>Kid&#039;s called Finn. 

Let me guess what&#039;s missing from this blog....

Anyway, my own view is that people would help those with children more often and wouldn&#039;t resent them if people with small kids controlled their children and didn&#039;t act as if no-one else existed.

I used to respect mothers with small children. Now I clench my teeth.

And breastfeeding in front of everyone? I don&#039;t want to see that, and I&#039;m sure I&#039;m not alone.</description>
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<p>Kid&#8217;s called Finn. </p>
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<p>Let me guess what&#8217;s missing from this blog&#8230;.</p>
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<p>Anyway, my own view is that people would help those with children more often and wouldn&#8217;t resent them if people with small kids controlled their children and didn&#8217;t act as if no-one else existed.</p>
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<p>I used to respect mothers with small children. Now I clench my teeth.</p>
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<p>And breastfeeding in front of everyone? I don&#8217;t want to see that, and I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m not alone.
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20095</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Andrew W, come off it.

Republic of Korea
China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Thailand
Laos

All but two are &lt;i&gt;actually&lt;/i&gt; socialist states, unlike Aucklandistan, and all have a FAR more intrusive government apparatus enforcing social cohesion and conduct.

Your move.

L</description>
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<p>Andrew W, come off it.</p>
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<p>Republic of Korea<br />
China<br />
Vietnam<br />
Cambodia<br />
Thailand<br />
Laos</p>
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<p>All but two are <i>actually</i> socialist states, unlike Aucklandistan, and all have a FAR more intrusive government apparatus enforcing social cohesion and conduct.</p>
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<p>Your move.</p>
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<p>L
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20094</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20094</guid>
		<description>People have learnt that they no longer need to look after their neighbours because that&#039;s the states job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>People have learnt that they no longer need to look after their neighbours because that&#8217;s the states job.
</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/03/heartless-commuters/#comment-20092</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=4278#comment-20092</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s no public transport culture buddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>It&#8217;s no public transport culture buddy.
</p>
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