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	<title>Comments on: Plagarism and Double Standards.</title>
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		<title>By: What would Hayek say</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15156</link>
		<dc:creator>What would Hayek say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15156</guid>
		<description>Pablo - your comment reminded me of the quote &quot;All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.&quot; From either Edmund Burke or Tolstoy&#039;s &#039;war and peace&#039;. 

In the case of corruption/unethical practice, I&#039;d suggest this does not mean &quot;the ends justifies the means&quot;, but that it is important in how we organise and transact that the process used is transparent and able to withstand ethical scrutiny (free of real or perceived favour). We ourselves may not have the best ethical standards but our processes should be defended so that at least our own ethics are there for the other party(s) to see. 

So on that basis it worries me, that people that are charged with responsibility for process may have a view that &quot;this is just the way things are&quot;. That is not good enough.</description>
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<p>Pablo &#8211; your comment reminded me of the quote &#8220;All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.&#8221; From either Edmund Burke or Tolstoy&#8217;s &#8216;war and peace&#8217;. </p>
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<p>In the case of corruption/unethical practice, I&#8217;d suggest this does not mean &#8220;the ends justifies the means&#8221;, but that it is important in how we organise and transact that the process used is transparent and able to withstand ethical scrutiny (free of real or perceived favour). We ourselves may not have the best ethical standards but our processes should be defended so that at least our own ethics are there for the other party(s) to see. </p>
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<p>So on that basis it worries me, that people that are charged with responsibility for process may have a view that &#8220;this is just the way things are&#8221;. That is not good enough.
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15154</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15154</guid>
		<description>Lew: I thought you were referring to joining those who want to hold on to the original so as to later sell it. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

WwHs: It struck me as quite ironic that the Ihimaera story broke the same week the corruption rankings came out. Although I am heartened that many seem to be indignant about his preferential treatment, I am bothered by the fact that many simply believe that is the way things are and there is nothing that can be done about it. As has been mentioned before, each and every corrupt or unethical practice must be resisted if democracy is going to reproduce itself as a cultural norm. I do not think that we can whinge about corruption in high places if we do not take some responsibility for resisting it in our daily lives.</description>
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<p>Lew: I thought you were referring to joining those who want to hold on to the original so as to later sell it. Sorry for the misinterpretation.</p>
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<p>WwHs: It struck me as quite ironic that the Ihimaera story broke the same week the corruption rankings came out. Although I am heartened that many seem to be indignant about his preferential treatment, I am bothered by the fact that many simply believe that is the way things are and there is nothing that can be done about it. As has been mentioned before, each and every corrupt or unethical practice must be resisted if democracy is going to reproduce itself as a cultural norm. I do not think that we can whinge about corruption in high places if we do not take some responsibility for resisting it in our daily lives.
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		<title>By: marty mars</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15152</link>
		<dc:creator>marty mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15152</guid>
		<description>A nice additional discussion from the literary angle here at maps for those who may be interested.

http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2009/11/plagiarism-what-ihimaera-could-learn.html

could be a red rag but the email posted in the comments

&quot;From: Stuart McCutcheon Date: 20 November 2009 3:31:21 PM
To: &quot;&#039;all-staff@auckland.ac.nz&#039;&quot; Subject: [All-staff] Message from the Vice-Chancellor&quot;

is interesting in relation to your post pablo.</description>
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<p>A nice additional discussion from the literary angle here at maps for those who may be interested.</p>
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<p><a href="http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2009/11/plagiarism-what-ihimaera-could-learn.html" rel="nofollow">http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2009/11/plagiarism-what-ihimaera-could-learn.html</a></p>
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<p>could be a red rag but the email posted in the comments</p>
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<p>&#8220;From: Stuart McCutcheon Date: 20 November 2009 3:31:21 PM<br />
To: &#8220;&#8216;all-staff@auckland.ac.nz&#8217;&#8221; Subject: [All-staff] Message from the Vice-Chancellor&#8221;</p>
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<p>is interesting in relation to your post pablo.
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		<title>By: What would Hayek say</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15151</link>
		<dc:creator>What would Hayek say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15151</guid>
		<description>Good post Pablo - actually links nicely to the recent post on Is NZ the least corrupt place on Earth. This being about the importance of perception as well as reality in whether institutions have societal respect/consent. This doesn&#039;t detract from NZ&#039;s ranking (impt of relative vs absolute), but illustrates that the long term well being of our society/economy is effected by our institutions and our perceptions of them (as well as the reality). You may or may not have heard that this years Swedish Academy of Science prize for economics http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/2009/ecoadv09.pdf is for work that considers these issues. 

I think the personal experience is well used to illustrate the wider point about standards.

I&#039;m also amused that you are a &quot;&lt;blockquote&gt; whiney rightwing Yank who is expendable/replaceable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&quot;

If your upsetting both extremes your probably doing well at using a good analytical framework as the basis for analysis and being willing to see where the evidence takes you.</description>
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<p>Good post Pablo &#8211; actually links nicely to the recent post on Is NZ the least corrupt place on Earth. This being about the importance of perception as well as reality in whether institutions have societal respect/consent. This doesn&#8217;t detract from NZ&#8217;s ranking (impt of relative vs absolute), but illustrates that the long term well being of our society/economy is effected by our institutions and our perceptions of them (as well as the reality). You may or may not have heard that this years Swedish Academy of Science prize for economics <a href="http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/2009/ecoadv09.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/2009/ecoadv09.pdf</a> is for work that considers these issues. </p>
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<p>I think the personal experience is well used to illustrate the wider point about standards.</p>
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<p>I&#8217;m also amused that you are a &#8220;</p>
<blockquote><p> whiney rightwing Yank who is expendable/replaceable.</p></blockquote>
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<p>&#8221;</p>
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<p>If your upsetting both extremes your probably doing well at using a good analytical framework as the basis for analysis and being willing to see where the evidence takes you.
</p>
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		<title>By: marty mars</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15150</link>
		<dc:creator>marty mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>fair enough - aroha mai</description>
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<p>fair enough &#8211; aroha mai
</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15149</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Marty, 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Would you rather the uni had treated witi like they treated you.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Pablo made clear that this was not his wish, saying that he thought a &quot;final written reprimand&quot; was appropriate in both cases.

L</description>
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<p>Marty, </p>
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<blockquote>Would you rather the uni had treated witi like they treated you.</p></blockquote>
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<p>Pablo made clear that this was not his wish, saying that he thought a &#8220;final written reprimand&#8221; was appropriate in both cases.</p>
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<p>L
</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15148</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15148</guid>
		<description>Pablo, it isn&#039;t really relevant. A tangential reflection that the novel -- in its original form, including the plagiarised passages -- is part of the historical record and shouldn&#039;t be expunged.

Unsure how you figure I would stand to profit from Ihimaera&#039;s malfeasance, though.

L</description>
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<p>Pablo, it isn&#8217;t really relevant. A tangential reflection that the novel &#8212; in its original form, including the plagiarised passages &#8212; is part of the historical record and shouldn&#8217;t be expunged.</p>
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<p>Unsure how you figure I would stand to profit from Ihimaera&#8217;s malfeasance, though.</p>
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<p>L
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		<title>By: marty mars</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15147</link>
		<dc:creator>marty mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15147</guid>
		<description>Pablo - it seems like an apple/orange situation to me. Your situation and witi&#039;s are not similar in my view. 

Would you rather the uni had treated witi like they treated you.</description>
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<p>Pablo &#8211; it seems like an apple/orange situation to me. Your situation and witi&#8217;s are not similar in my view. </p>
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<p>Would you rather the uni had treated witi like they treated you.
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15140</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15140</guid>
		<description>Lew:

Not sure how that last comment is relevant to my post.  Either you are joking (which is not how I read it) or you are saying that you would choose to profit from a famous person&#039;s malfeasance regardless  of the ethics involved.

Which is it?</description>
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<p>Lew:</p>
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<p>Not sure how that last comment is relevant to my post.  Either you are joking (which is not how I read it) or you are saying that you would choose to profit from a famous person&#8217;s malfeasance regardless  of the ethics involved.</p>
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<p>Which is it?
</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15130</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have to say, if I had a copy of the offending tome there&#039;s no way in hell I&#039;d let anyone buy it back. 

L</description>
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<p>I have to say, if I had a copy of the offending tome there&#8217;s no way in hell I&#8217;d let anyone buy it back. </p>
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<p>L
</p>
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		<title>By: rich</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15121</link>
		<dc:creator>rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15121</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;A large number of students at the UoA medical school were reprimanded in late 2007 for what amounted to general academic dishonesty...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d have been busted in 6th form if they&#039;d had those rules. Most science practical assesments were done by the tried and tested method:
- write up the instructions
- calculate the theoretical expected result
- apply a suitable random error to that result
- write the adjusted values up as &quot;observations&quot;
- graph everything and out pops the desired conclusion
- spend the rest of the alloted time reducing phenylamines under the fume hood

(ok, maybe the last bit *would* have got me busted).</description>
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<blockquote>A large number of students at the UoA medical school were reprimanded in late 2007 for what amounted to general academic dishonesty&#8230;</p></blockquote>
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<p>I&#8217;d have been busted in 6th form if they&#8217;d had those rules. Most science practical assesments were done by the tried and tested method:<br />
- write up the instructions<br />
- calculate the theoretical expected result<br />
- apply a suitable random error to that result<br />
- write the adjusted values up as &#8220;observations&#8221;<br />
- graph everything and out pops the desired conclusion<br />
- spend the rest of the alloted time reducing phenylamines under the fume hood</p>
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<p>(ok, maybe the last bit *would* have got me busted).
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15120</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15120</guid>
		<description>Alan: I agree that the email was the excuse, not the cause (although I have to accept the fact that I handed them the excuse, no matter what were my mitigating circumstances). But I do not think it was so much the public commentary on security matters as much as it was repeated clashes with academic managers about their approach to the enterprise, which included the issues raised by Psycho Milt and AG above.

That is how something that should have resulted in a formal warning for misconduct was, as the ERA pointed out, escalated into a case for summary dismissal.

As for daedalus x&#039;s comment that this post is just a personal whinge about an inconsequential employment matter: apparently not.</description>
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<p>Alan: I agree that the email was the excuse, not the cause (although I have to accept the fact that I handed them the excuse, no matter what were my mitigating circumstances). But I do not think it was so much the public commentary on security matters as much as it was repeated clashes with academic managers about their approach to the enterprise, which included the issues raised by Psycho Milt and AG above.</p>
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<p>That is how something that should have resulted in a formal warning for misconduct was, as the ERA pointed out, escalated into a case for summary dismissal.</p>
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<p>As for daedalus x&#8217;s comment that this post is just a personal whinge about an inconsequential employment matter: apparently not.
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15119</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul, you didn&#039;t the boot for the E-mail, that was just the excuse they needed to lever you out. 

You got the boot because you had upset the authorities so many times with your public statements on defence and security issues.

It&#039;s a very common tactic.</description>
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<p>Paul, you didn&#8217;t the boot for the E-mail, that was just the excuse they needed to lever you out. </p>
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<p>You got the boot because you had upset the authorities so many times with your public statements on defence and security issues.</p>
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<p>It&#8217;s a very common tactic.
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15118</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>marty: as I said in the post I initially found it ludicrous that Mr. Ihimaera would be favored because he was maori, famous and gay. But after reading, hearing and thinking about why he has been left off without penalty other than his belated apology and promise to re-write the book and buy back (and presumably pulp) all copies the original, I simply asked why the apparent double standard with regard to my case as well as that of others (students, staff) caught plagarising. To date I have not heard of any mitigating factors and, to the contrary, have now read about aggravating factors (i.e. the charge of a prior instance of plagarism).  

Perhaps he is cut a large amount of institutional slack because he is a &quot;national treasure&quot; (although I personally think of Edmund Hillary when thinking along such lines). What would be your explanation? Or do you believe that his behaviour, if not acceptable, is unworthy of reprimand?</description>
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<p>marty: as I said in the post I initially found it ludicrous that Mr. Ihimaera would be favored because he was maori, famous and gay. But after reading, hearing and thinking about why he has been left off without penalty other than his belated apology and promise to re-write the book and buy back (and presumably pulp) all copies the original, I simply asked why the apparent double standard with regard to my case as well as that of others (students, staff) caught plagarising. To date I have not heard of any mitigating factors and, to the contrary, have now read about aggravating factors (i.e. the charge of a prior instance of plagarism).  </p>
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<p>Perhaps he is cut a large amount of institutional slack because he is a &#8220;national treasure&#8221; (although I personally think of Edmund Hillary when thinking along such lines). What would be your explanation? Or do you believe that his behaviour, if not acceptable, is unworthy of reprimand?
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		<title>By: Ag</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15117</link>
		<dc:creator>Ag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15117</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s about money and added value status – fee paying students are of more value to the university than replacebale academics and rarer celebrity academics add value in attracting fee paying students.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And this is why I resigned from my academic job. Universities are happy to take money from foreign students who have limited competence with English, and in order to keep more coming they impose grade quotas to make it difficult to fail them. As for plagiarism, 90% of plagiarism cases I have had were foreign students who simply couldn&#039;t write the papers themselves, so resorted to buying them or copying from the internet.

When I was an undergraduate I was told that the penalty for plagiarism was expulsion. Now you won&#039;t necessarily get a zero fail for the course.

It&#039;s what happens if you put the inmates in charge of the asylum.</description>
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<blockquote>It’s about money and added value status – fee paying students are of more value to the university than replacebale academics and rarer celebrity academics add value in attracting fee paying students.</p></blockquote>
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<p>And this is why I resigned from my academic job. Universities are happy to take money from foreign students who have limited competence with English, and in order to keep more coming they impose grade quotas to make it difficult to fail them. As for plagiarism, 90% of plagiarism cases I have had were foreign students who simply couldn&#8217;t write the papers themselves, so resorted to buying them or copying from the internet.</p>
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<p>When I was an undergraduate I was told that the penalty for plagiarism was expulsion. Now you won&#8217;t necessarily get a zero fail for the course.</p>
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<p>It&#8217;s what happens if you put the inmates in charge of the asylum.
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		<title>By: Graeme Edgeler</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15114</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme Edgeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15114</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;PS. The innocent cannot be pardoned.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Except in New Zealand. We only ever pardon the innocent. It&#039;s never made sense to me either.

http://publicaddress.net/default,4779.sm#post4779</description>
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<blockquote>PS. The innocent cannot be pardoned.</p></blockquote>
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<p>Except in New Zealand. We only ever pardon the innocent. It&#8217;s never made sense to me either.</p>
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<p><a href="http://publicaddress.net/default,4779.sm#post4779" rel="nofollow">http://publicaddress.net/default,4779.sm#post4779</a>
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		<title>By: marty mars</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15111</link>
		<dc:creator>marty mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15111</guid>
		<description>pablo - do you really think he got special treatment because he is famous? Or was it because he is maori?

there are double standards in this country and usually maori come out second best IMO or do you disagree?</description>
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<p>pablo &#8211; do you really think he got special treatment because he is famous? Or was it because he is maori?</p>
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<p>there are double standards in this country and usually maori come out second best IMO or do you disagree?
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		<title>By: Eoipso</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15099</link>
		<dc:creator>Eoipso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15099</guid>
		<description>Pablo: I was admitting a shameful opinion that was not based on the application of a principle (equal justice), but on the balance of outcomes. 
PS. The innocent cannot be pardoned.</description>
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<p>Pablo: I was admitting a shameful opinion that was not based on the application of a principle (equal justice), but on the balance of outcomes.<br />
PS. The innocent cannot be pardoned.
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		<title>By: Psycho Milt</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15097</link>
		<dc:creator>Psycho Milt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15097</guid>
		<description>SPC: it&#039;s all universities.  Mine has exceeded its TEC funding cap for domestic students, which means any additional NZ students we take on have to be heavily subsidised by us, which is a serious financial burden.  Foreign students are pure income.  You bet that has deleterious effects on the institution.</description>
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<p>SPC: it&#8217;s all universities.  Mine has exceeded its TEC funding cap for domestic students, which means any additional NZ students we take on have to be heavily subsidised by us, which is a serious financial burden.  Foreign students are pure income.  You bet that has deleterious effects on the institution.
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		<title>By: Psycho Milt</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/11/plagarism-and-double-standards/#comment-15096</link>
		<dc:creator>Psycho Milt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=3730#comment-15096</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Uni of Auckland&#039;s behaviour in either case was acceptable, I just don&#039;t find such bad behaviour from an NZ employer at all surprising, having been a union delegate in the past.  If we are genuinely the least corrupt nation, all I can say is it reflects very poorly on all the other nations.  And as previously stated, hopefully you gave them a hiding when it came before the ERA.</description>
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<p>I don&#8217;t think Uni of Auckland&#8217;s behaviour in either case was acceptable, I just don&#8217;t find such bad behaviour from an NZ employer at all surprising, having been a union delegate in the past.  If we are genuinely the least corrupt nation, all I can say is it reflects very poorly on all the other nations.  And as previously stated, hopefully you gave them a hiding when it came before the ERA.
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