Comments on: The role of the judiciary is to judge http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:24:36 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Lew http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9567 Lew Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:36:18 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9567 SPC, eh? L

SPC, eh?

L

]]> By: SPC http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9566 SPC Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:34:56 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9566 Anita, the Law Society viewpoint is as "effectively" ideological as Roger Kerrs view on how we can get "greater productivity and higher wages for workers" - in the sense of being for the rights of the same few (capitalist/classist) rather than the equal rights of a many (both of which move towards building a permanent capitalist class elite). They both want to limit money in the hands of elected government and maximise the amount of money and power in the hands of the few. Lawyers are free to dissent against their Society advocacy ...

Anita, the Law Society viewpoint is as “effectively” ideological as Roger Kerrs view on how we can get “greater productivity and higher wages for workers” – in the sense of being for the rights of the same few (capitalist/classist) rather than the equal rights of a many (both of which move towards building a permanent capitalist class elite).

They both want to limit money in the hands of elected government and maximise the amount of money and power in the hands of the few.

Lawyers are free to dissent against their Society advocacy …

]]> By: SPC http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9564 SPC Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:24:24 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9564 Classic Lew, a truly singular line taken by the Law Society and any dissent, calling it like it is, is from someone not accepting "liberal pluralism". Drink Tui's?

Classic Lew, a truly singular line taken by the Law Society and any dissent, calling it like it is, is from someone not accepting “liberal pluralism”. Drink Tui’s?

]]> By: Anita http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9540 Anita Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:41:52 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9540 SPC, Do you mean <a href="http://www.lawsociety.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/11281/Electoral_Finance_Reform_Issues_Paper-3006_2.pdf" rel="nofollow">this</a>? If so, why? I disagree with about 90% of the contents, but I'm not sure I see it as tarnishing all lawyers with a particular class wars agenda.

SPC,

Do you mean this? If so, why? I disagree with about 90% of the contents, but I’m not sure I see it as tarnishing all lawyers with a particular class wars agenda.

]]> By: Lew http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9538 Lew Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:18:34 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9538 Anita, I guess SPC must mean the Law Society's submission on electoral finance reform. But my objection is to the next bit: <blockquote>I now view them as a “class” advocate </blockquote> This is a peculiarly blinkered view. Do you just not accept the premises of liberal democratic pluralism? At the risk of repeating myself, class ain't everything and everything ain't class. L

Anita, I guess SPC must mean the Law Society’s submission on electoral finance reform. But my objection is to the next bit:

I now view them as a “class” advocate

This is a peculiarly blinkered view. Do you just not accept the premises of liberal democratic pluralism? At the risk of repeating myself, class ain’t everything and everything ain’t class.

L

]]> By: Anita http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9537 Anita Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:07:18 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9537 SPC, <blockquote>the lawyers submission on Election Campaign Law</blockquote> ?

SPC,

the lawyers submission on Election Campaign Law

?

]]> By: SPC http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9536 SPC Sun, 19 Jul 2009 08:40:05 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9536 After the lawyers submission on Election Campaign Law, I now view them as a "class" advocate (seeing the purpose of law to restrain the populist politician on the one hand and to protect the interests of those with the most money on the other) - excepting when acting on "legal aid" for those outside this class. So I guess here the attempt is to restrain the right wing populist (law and order politicans) to save the class from the (tax bill) cost of imprisoning more and more people.

After the lawyers submission on Election Campaign Law, I now view them as a “class” advocate (seeing the purpose of law to restrain the populist politician on the one hand and to protect the interests of those with the most money on the other) – excepting when acting on “legal aid” for those outside this class.

So I guess here the attempt is to restrain the right wing populist (law and order politicans) to save the class from the (tax bill) cost of imprisoning more and more people.

]]> By: Lew http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9531 Lew Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:47:07 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9531 Toad, Anita, You're not fully in behind Dame Sian's comments - that's understood. The point wasn't really about the merits of the speech, it was about the tension between principle and practice. I'm most interested in the people who disagree with the particulars of the speech, but who aren't attacking the fact that such a speech was given. There seem to be rather few of them. Scott, Quite right. It's unfortunate that this group includes the Minister of Justice. L

Toad, Anita,

You’re not fully in behind Dame Sian’s comments – that’s understood. The point wasn’t really about the merits of the speech, it was about the tension between principle and practice. I’m most interested in the people who disagree with the particulars of the speech, but who aren’t attacking the fact that such a speech was given. There seem to be rather few of them.

Scott,

Quite right. It’s unfortunate that this group includes the Minister of Justice.

L

]]> By: Scott Yorke http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9528 Scott Yorke Sun, 19 Jul 2009 03:58:48 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9528 I'm in the first group too. Most of those bleating about the inappropriateness of Elias' comments are not people I'd take constitutional law advice from. For example, Act MP and former employment lawyer David Garrett. (Actually, I'm not sure after his "watercooler" comments recently I'd have been rushing to him for employment law advice either) The Law Society has come out in defence of Elias. And it's actually not that uncommon for judges to make statements about matters of law and criminal justice. They are experts, after all. It's a shame the atmosphere surrounding law and order issues is so toxic that the proponents of sensible suggestions are vilified.

I’m in the first group too. Most of those bleating about the inappropriateness of Elias’ comments are not people I’d take constitutional law advice from. For example, Act MP and former employment lawyer David Garrett. (Actually, I’m not sure after his “watercooler” comments recently I’d have been rushing to him for employment law advice either)

The Law Society has come out in defence of Elias. And it’s actually not that uncommon for judges to make statements about matters of law and criminal justice. They are experts, after all.

It’s a shame the atmosphere surrounding law and order issues is so toxic that the proponents of sensible suggestions are vilified.

]]> By: Anita http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9524 Anita Sun, 19 Jul 2009 00:07:42 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9524 I think I'm also on the margins of the first group. I support Elias' right to speak on the matter, but… I believe we should not have prisons, and that if we do have prisons we should not use them in the way that we do, and that if we have them and use them this way we shouldn't imprison most of the people we currently do. OTOH if we do have prisons and we do use them the way we do and we do imprison everyone we currently imprison then we should have early release amnesties.

I think I’m also on the margins of the first group. I support Elias’ right to speak on the matter, but… I believe we should not have prisons, and that if we do have prisons we should not use them in the way that we do, and that if we have them and use them this way we shouldn’t imprison most of the people we currently do. OTOH if we do have prisons and we do use them the way we do and we do imprison everyone we currently imprison then we should have early release amnesties.

]]> By: toad http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/07/the-role-of-the-judiciary-is-to-judge/#comment-9523 toad Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:43:54 +0000 http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2784#comment-9523 Lew said: <blockquote>I’m the first, with Toad and most commenters on Eddie’s post on The Standard. </blockquote> I'm actually only marginally in the first group Lew, at least as far as the amnesty is concerned. I think it is far better to not send people who pose no significant threat to society to prison in the first place. People convicted of property crime other than really serious fraudsters and victimless crimes like drug possession simply shouldn't be there.

Lew said:

I’m the first, with Toad and most commenters on Eddie’s post on The Standard.

I’m actually only marginally in the first group Lew, at least as far as the amnesty is concerned. I think it is far better to not send people who pose no significant threat to society to prison in the first place. People convicted of property crime other than really serious fraudsters and victimless crimes like drug possession simply shouldn’t be there.

]]>