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	<title>Comments on: Deconstructing Democracy: Introduction.</title>
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		<title>By: Kiwipolitico &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6898</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiwipolitico &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 23:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2168#comment-6898</guid>
		<description>[...] help posting a section of Ani DiFranco&#8217;s Hello Birmingham. With an echo of Pablo&#8217;s recent posts, she is talking, at least in part, of the powerlessness of electors to make the changes that [...]</description>
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<p>[...] help posting a section of Ani DiFranco&#8217;s Hello Birmingham. With an echo of Pablo&#8217;s recent posts, she is talking, at least in part, of the powerlessness of electors to make the changes that [...]
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6702</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 06:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Marty for the insightful comment. What you are referring to appears to me to be variants of exclusionary or limited democracy. These are countries in which selected minorities are offered formal political rights but are denied structural opportunities equal to those of the majority (limited); or those in which the political rights of selected minorities are restricted (exclusionary). Since &quot;democracy&quot; is a form of majority rule, it always is biased in favour of the many rather than the few regardless of the origins of both. The true measure of democracy is not in the treatment of the majority, but in the treatment of minorities. In that measure it can be argued that conditions of post-colonialism, the most recent of which were created by capitalist imperialism, exacerbate rather than ameliorate the disadvantages of the minority, which means that capitalist democracies are limited by definition.

As for issues of observations. Subjective assessments of objective phenomena vary according to the vantage point of the observer. But, as I noted in the post about conceptual stretching, that does not obviate the original objective condition. What makes for subjective difference is the objective insertion of the observer in the social milieu. It is recognition of this fact that gives credence to the more informed of post-modern analyses.</description>
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<p>Thanks Marty for the insightful comment. What you are referring to appears to me to be variants of exclusionary or limited democracy. These are countries in which selected minorities are offered formal political rights but are denied structural opportunities equal to those of the majority (limited); or those in which the political rights of selected minorities are restricted (exclusionary). Since &#8220;democracy&#8221; is a form of majority rule, it always is biased in favour of the many rather than the few regardless of the origins of both. The true measure of democracy is not in the treatment of the majority, but in the treatment of minorities. In that measure it can be argued that conditions of post-colonialism, the most recent of which were created by capitalist imperialism, exacerbate rather than ameliorate the disadvantages of the minority, which means that capitalist democracies are limited by definition.</p>
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<p>As for issues of observations. Subjective assessments of objective phenomena vary according to the vantage point of the observer. But, as I noted in the post about conceptual stretching, that does not obviate the original objective condition. What makes for subjective difference is the objective insertion of the observer in the social milieu. It is recognition of this fact that gives credence to the more informed of post-modern analyses.
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		<title>By: Kiwipolitico &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Civil disobedience is not an attack</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6670</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiwipolitico &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Civil disobedience is not an attack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 00:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2168#comment-6670</guid>
		<description>[...] but one of the `institutions of societal democracy&#8217; referred to in Pablo&#8217;s recent post on the topic; a civic duty, to use Thoreau&#8217;s formulation, rather than an act of social [...]</description>
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<p>[...] but one of the `institutions of societal democracy&#8217; referred to in Pablo&#8217;s recent post on the topic; a civic duty, to use Thoreau&#8217;s formulation, rather than an act of social [...]
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		<title>By: marty mars</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6663</link>
		<dc:creator>marty mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 21:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2168#comment-6663</guid>
		<description>Kia ora Pablo,
I&#039;m looking forward to the book too.
I&#039;m interested in your view about what happens to a democracy when external macro events interact with it. Obviously there are external factors which can cause a democracy to slip away from the ideal and move towards the autocratic state. I suppose i&#039;m thinking of wars as an example, but more specifically colonisation. 

Can you have a democracy when the majority population may score above the line for the catagories you mentioned, namely procedual, institutional, societal and economic. But a subset of that population may score below the line, from their perspective. A extreme example may be slavery. The slaves don&#039;t live or participate in a democratic society yet the larger society could be seen as having a number of democratic features, and perhaps could score above the democracy line.

Colonisation or more specifically de-colonisation is surely on the spectrum with slavery at one end and freedom at the other. Is there a correlation between these degrees of freedom and the amount of democracy? If a person is less free does that mean they have less democracy?

If one of the tenents of democracy is personal freedom, does an indigenous, disadvantaged, colonised people actually live in a democracy? For them there is less freedom than for the majority. I suppose when the minority is 1% or 2% it is perhaps not such a major consideration but what if the minority is 30% of the population?

So I suppose my questions (longwinded i know) are, Can a country be called democratic when there is a subset of indigenous, disadvantaged people living within that population who do not experience the same manifestation of democracy as the majority? 
And further, if that country cannot truely be called a democracy - what is the correct term for the political structure?
Is colonisation a macro external event that affects democracy, like war, or is colonisation incorporated within the internal workings of democracy, as articulated by the various scoring you have mentioned. In other words if a country is colonised do we just score them lower in certain catagories because the overall theme of democracy is intact?

Finally it all boils down to this... If a country cannot be actually called a true democracy while certain indigenous citizens are structurally disadvantaged... then is NZ a democracy? is the US a democracy? Is australia a democracy? and is canada a democracy? These 4 countries are all colonised and the indigenous peoples of those countries are disadvantaged. Also interesting to note they are the 4 countries that did not ratify the UN declaration on indigenous rights.
I am born and breed in this country, I have never lived in an autocratic society, perhaps i haven&#039;t ever lived in a democratic society either.
Appreciate your thoughts.
All the best.

How much does the observer distort the observation by the very act of observing? For example an indigenous person placed into a society that has undergone colonisation may look at the minority who have less democracy than the majority and score/say that this society is not very democratic. The same person may instead identify with the majority and say there is a high degree of democratisation. I&#039;m interested in how those views are reconcilled.</description>
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<p>Kia ora Pablo,<br />
I&#8217;m looking forward to the book too.<br />
I&#8217;m interested in your view about what happens to a democracy when external macro events interact with it. Obviously there are external factors which can cause a democracy to slip away from the ideal and move towards the autocratic state. I suppose i&#8217;m thinking of wars as an example, but more specifically colonisation. </p>
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<p>Can you have a democracy when the majority population may score above the line for the catagories you mentioned, namely procedual, institutional, societal and economic. But a subset of that population may score below the line, from their perspective. A extreme example may be slavery. The slaves don&#8217;t live or participate in a democratic society yet the larger society could be seen as having a number of democratic features, and perhaps could score above the democracy line.</p>
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<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>Colonisation or more specifically de-colonisation is surely on the spectrum with slavery at one end and freedom at the other. Is there a correlation between these degrees of freedom and the amount of democracy? If a person is less free does that mean they have less democracy?</p>
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<p>If one of the tenents of democracy is personal freedom, does an indigenous, disadvantaged, colonised people actually live in a democracy? For them there is less freedom than for the majority. I suppose when the minority is 1% or 2% it is perhaps not such a major consideration but what if the minority is 30% of the population?</p>
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<p>So I suppose my questions (longwinded i know) are, Can a country be called democratic when there is a subset of indigenous, disadvantaged people living within that population who do not experience the same manifestation of democracy as the majority?<br />
And further, if that country cannot truely be called a democracy &#8211; what is the correct term for the political structure?<br />
Is colonisation a macro external event that affects democracy, like war, or is colonisation incorporated within the internal workings of democracy, as articulated by the various scoring you have mentioned. In other words if a country is colonised do we just score them lower in certain catagories because the overall theme of democracy is intact?</p>
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<p>Finally it all boils down to this&#8230; If a country cannot be actually called a true democracy while certain indigenous citizens are structurally disadvantaged&#8230; then is NZ a democracy? is the US a democracy? Is australia a democracy? and is canada a democracy? These 4 countries are all colonised and the indigenous peoples of those countries are disadvantaged. Also interesting to note they are the 4 countries that did not ratify the UN declaration on indigenous rights.<br />
I am born and breed in this country, I have never lived in an autocratic society, perhaps i haven&#8217;t ever lived in a democratic society either.<br />
Appreciate your thoughts.<br />
All the best.</p>
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<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>How much does the observer distort the observation by the very act of observing? For example an indigenous person placed into a society that has undergone colonisation may look at the minority who have less democracy than the majority and score/say that this society is not very democratic. The same person may instead identify with the majority and say there is a high degree of democratisation. I&#8217;m interested in how those views are reconcilled.
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6626</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 03:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Matt. I have to get through the security book first (the dislocations of the past couple of years has slowed progress on that front). But I am already thinking of the next project, hence this series of posts. My major concern with regard to NZ is the decline in civility of political discourse, growing lack of transparency in government and increased institutional manipulation by elites for self-serving or partisan purposes (on the latter you might check out Cactus Kate&#039;s dissection of the NZX in some recent posts on her blog, which is just one example of the larger negative trend).</description>
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<p>Thanks Matt. I have to get through the security book first (the dislocations of the past couple of years has slowed progress on that front). But I am already thinking of the next project, hence this series of posts. My major concern with regard to NZ is the decline in civility of political discourse, growing lack of transparency in government and increased institutional manipulation by elites for self-serving or partisan purposes (on the latter you might check out Cactus Kate&#8217;s dissection of the NZX in some recent posts on her blog, which is just one example of the larger negative trend).
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/05/deconstructing-democracy-introduction/#comment-6609</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 18:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwipolitico.com/?p=2168#comment-6609</guid>
		<description>I wish you all the best in your project, Pablo. Democratic societies are under constant pressure from authoritarian influences. It must be acknowledged that the reverse is also true. Please do your best to make the book accessible to as wide an audience as possible.</description>
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<p>I wish you all the best in your project, Pablo. Democratic societies are under constant pressure from authoritarian influences. It must be acknowledged that the reverse is also true. Please do your best to make the book accessible to as wide an audience as possible.
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